From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id GNC3KCxgtF+iZQAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 23:43:40 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id oHWOJCxgtF/lPgAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 23:43:40 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3007940546 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 23:43:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:56610 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kfAdO-0000CR-Gd for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 18:43:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41936) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kfAct-0000CE-SF for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 18:43:07 -0500 Received: from mail-pj1-x1034.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::1034]:38577) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kfAcr-0006pm-Ky for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 18:43:07 -0500 Received: by mail-pj1-x1034.google.com with SMTP id gi3so65812pjb.3 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 15:43:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=references:user-agent:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:message-id:date :mime-version; bh=bEzrAxpxe59vfH8sBhKZT8eBKQxuyLe5UMC9UT/ATLk=; b=Xs+fs0pDftdbr+G2iOTvBmgPpGD225KogYcJvi6i5RFV3+WzdeBgVKoZ5wu3OVNrl6 QnnvrDCRF7oOKFGWSACsam8gLcV08KbY3UBLvytSJfh/ZLhElOhac807XvkBJhWpVvA0 VF2ve9fxMBERcUPzCxSQIOaH/Qh5y9SeRhPGUJh6KZaVruFHTmRj/mqMq79e1ov5kqjF WfgXRDHfaWVcShei1xWQ8UCW2zTCdi9/XWU05+9CwCW+tbYRJRY7BSn92DB8xl3J2Rvw UmAkS6S3I4O7A6vQQPw9OtPN9PGWxyEFly5NpRpRDB2gfZBngsghQHALgY/75kKt2nvD CEzw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:subject :in-reply-to:message-id:date:mime-version; bh=bEzrAxpxe59vfH8sBhKZT8eBKQxuyLe5UMC9UT/ATLk=; b=MlTKP4jYIyriRFFV+HRWx9rbh1To55VKuioNnHRrynbRT0MURwjaC7TRm1CksDN2K1 xv8oytlJGIJXuEhkh+guzU5XBPsnkMhCyOlBJsdtaqfCtmthKMaDUL+IX9Hsmi7KvZ0v jF7mD4eaxBqG4CkFDBGuLYups8/yMjgRWO6meZeFyINMEDqoIMrsx64CqpmNJABDqYBs UZ7IuO3hMEl6mRDB/KHB9n51RBD9UjcDwbTOQo3EypEP/RcRr1IE7KitGjc/xBllrBZg dXwz3mbDC+oO7NYytyNldG9SJ1BfmIlA9x/btJ1ZzkpSPSvzzgTu5rPAYMZ0Pm7Yij6K WDCA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533+MoWlMNMmw3E6Mi4wZVVmiMop230/epW6D75V8DUMlyccCA5/ Z/0QdaW5zvlbc0fq9/tXTeYKhOdezMZYIA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx9YKAHGbqWZiXJdPNsw+VqN677CnLAZAuCFk2ETTnGiWs9R0T0pScuPlzKE/sUJ22//KWlnQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:2204:: with SMTP id kw4mr1379254pjb.153.1605656582653; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 15:43:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from tim-desktop (106-69-114-95.dyn.iinet.net.au. [106.69.114.95]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b29sm23129597pff.194.2020.11.17.15.43.00 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 17 Nov 2020 15:43:01 -0800 (PST) References: <20201117184130.t67oqxhnkw5rwozx@E15-2016.optimum.net> <7ef0ec5a-276e-ace7-5316-e168373295ec@grinta.net> <20201117201554.y5pz2blxiklq673m@E15-2016.optimum.net> <6e794a47-b58f-df7a-7420-e0c74174ac16@grinta.net> <20201117205419.l2mzatdu3fkiwgwt@E15-2016.optimum.net> User-agent: mu4e 1.5.7; emacs 27.1.50 From: Tim Cross To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Ignored bugs In-reply-to: Message-ID: <87eekra6t9.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 10:42:58 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1034; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x1034.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Xs+fs0pD; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.71 X-TUID: WCuKsXTwMfiO Jean Louis writes: > > As Org is part of Emacs one has to understand Boruch's point as > valid. This means it is part of Emacs and M-x report-emacs-bug should > not be ignored. Managers of the mailing list or Org developers could > make sure to read those bug reports as well. A cron job to grep report > for Org bugs can help there. > > It is quite clear when user finds out about M-x org-submit-bug-report > that such will rather use that. But there is plethora of users who may > not find that option and they will simply reach to Help menu to submit > the bug. > > There is menu item Org and Submit bug report. But user may not find > that menu item as first thing to reach could be simply "Help" and > submit bug report. > > > I may join and say I support that alignment with the other function. > > Personally as Org is part of Emacs, I think it should not have special > bug reporting, but it should rather be in M-x report-emacs-bug > together. I say this as I see that bugs sent to mailing list may not > have its proper action cycles, or proper tracking. But I am unsure of > it. You could develop the function report-emacs-bug to have users say > clearly it is Org bug. > > One could detect if user is invoking report-emacs-bug from Org mode > and only then ask user "Is this Org mode bug?" and provide that little > different instructions for Org mode. > > As if that it not acceptable I would then propose these functions: > > M-x report-org-bug > > and > > M-x report-emacs-bug > > As those are more aligned to each other or just as Boruch said. > I agree the bug submission functionality for Emacs needs revision. This is something which really needs to be taken up on the emacs devel list. It isn't just org-mode that is faced with this challenge. As Emacs moves towards greater reliance on ELPA packages and with the addition of the Non-GNU ELPA repository, this situation is only going to get worse. M-x report-emacs-bug comes from a time when the majority of code was in Emacs and any which was not was installed manually by the user. It was clear to the user what was core and what they had installed. However, things have moved on now. It isn't a clear to users anymore what is core emacs and what is not - for them, it is all emacs. For example, I have over 370 additional ELPA based packages in my configuration. Many are from repositories other than the official GNU ELPA repository and have a wide variety of approaches for issue tracking. I'm not sure that existing M-x submit-emacs-bug is actually up to the task or if even the Emacs bug tracker is. I suspect the current tracker receives bugs for many packages which are from repositories like melpa. How are Emacs developers supposed to manage such bugs (they don't necessarily know where that package tracks issues or how to pass those issues on etc). Things become even more complicated when it comes to org as there are effectively two distinct user bases. You have those org users who just use the version of org which is bundled with Emacs and those who prefer to use the current release from org (either via the org repository or MELPA). Essentially, org has to maintain two versions and bugs reported in one version may not exist in the other (or more likely, have been fixed in the older). This is a very complex issue with many moving parts. Improvements are likely to be incremental in small steps. I do think we need to fix some information that is out there. When you google org-mode bug tracking, you get the following link https://orgmode.org/worg/org-issues.html The information on that page is completely out of date. The link to the bug tracking RSS feed gives a 504 error, the list of old issues are for 2013. This page should probably be removed or replaced with more current information. I'm assuming all org bugs are tracked in the Emacs bug tracker? All org bugs should be tracked in a single repository. While submitting bugs via this list is probably OK, there does need to be (and probably is?) a mechanism to ensure they are also added to 'the' bug tracker. We need to support those 'good' citizens who first try to determine if a bug is known and then add to it rather than create another issue which is just a repeat of a known issue. Likewise, we don't want people donating valuable time resources working on a bug which has already been resolved (particularly likely when you have two maintained versions). -- Tim Cross