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From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <arne_bab@web.de>
To: Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com>
Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert?
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 01:11:38 +0100
Message-ID: <87h7povo3p.fsf@web.de> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87pn4d9e95.fsf@gmail.com>

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Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
> There are only two mechanisms by which org-mode is upgraded and as far
> as I know, both require that the user either initiates the update or
> turns on automatic updates. Your argument would be more compelling for
> me if we were talking about updates which occur without user
> intervention or control.

In my case org is updated automatically. I use rolling release distros.
There’s never a time when I say “now I get all the new versions, let’s
look for breakage”.

> Change is inevitable and such changes will from time to time, break
> things.

Is breakage truly inevitable? Do fundamentals of org have to change?

If some small detail changes in a convoluted setup I have, that’s
something I can cope with.

That there are packages that almost never break and packages that almost
always break on update, but little in-between sounds like most breakage
isn’t inevitable.

Here’s the source for the statement:
https://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/04/volatile-software/

It makes my point much more succintly:
------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------
When I'm updating a piece of software there's a good chance it's not
because I'm specifically updating that program. I might be:

- Moving to a new computer.
- Running a "$PACKAGE_MANAGER update" command.
- Moving a website to a bigger VPS and reinstalling all the libraries.

In those cases (and many others) I'm not reading the release notes for a
specific program or library. I'm not going to find out about the
brokenness until I try to use the program the next time.
------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ 

and a second point:

------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ 
This may just be an artifact of how my brain is wired, but I actually
get a sense of satisfaction from writing code that bridges the gap
between older versions and new.

I can almost hear a little voice in my head saying:

    "Mwahaha, I'll slip this refactoring past them and they'll never
    even know it happened!"

Maybe it's just me, but I think that "glue" code can be clever and
beautiful in its own right.

It may not bring a smile to anyone's face like a shiny new feature, but
it prevents many frowns instead, and preventing a frown makes the world
a happier place just as much as creating a smile!
------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ 

> With respect to the current issue about line indentation. I think the
> key question here is was communication of this change sufficient and if
> not, what can be done to make such communication more effective.

It cannot be made effective enough. If you make it effective enough, the
other gazillion packages on the system will use the same mechanism and
that will make it ineffective again.

The only way that works is to avoid breakage on update — except for the
few cases where it is truly unavoidable.

We have the discussion here, because many people disagree with the
notion that the current breakage was unavoidable.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein
ohne es zu merken

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  reply	other threads:[~2020-11-17  0:12 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 76+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-11-13 17:30 Karl Voit
2020-11-13 21:10 ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-13 21:38   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14  3:02     ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-13 21:47   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-13 22:13     ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-13 22:21       ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14 17:28         ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-14 19:10           ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 12:44             ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-15 13:26               ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 21:59                 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-15 22:15                   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-16  7:15                   ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16  6:26               ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-14 10:45   ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-13 21:31 ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14 22:43 ` David Rogers
2020-11-15  5:38   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15  7:47     ` David Rogers
2020-11-15  8:54       ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 10:37       ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-15 11:42         ` Tim Cross
2020-11-15 11:48         ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-15 11:58           ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-15 12:09           ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 14:50             ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-15 15:11               ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 10:44       ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-15 11:22         ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-15 14:03           ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-16  5:24             ` Kyle Meyer
2020-11-16  6:41               ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16  7:15                 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 11:21                   ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-16 23:24                     ` T.F. Torrey
2020-11-17  1:21                       ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-17  7:01                         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17  7:48                       ` Michal Politowski
2020-11-19  4:17                     ` Marcel Ventosa
2020-11-16  8:06                 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-16 12:10                 ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16  6:54               ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-16  7:12                 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17  4:03                   ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-17  5:25                     ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17 13:15                       ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-16  7:01               ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16  7:22                 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 16:04                   ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16 16:26                     ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 18:12                       ` gyro funch
2020-11-16 18:48                         ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 19:41                           ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16 19:56                             ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 21:50                             ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 23:01                               ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 21:44                           ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 18:20                       ` gyro funch
2020-11-16 20:56                       ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 21:35                         ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16 22:44                         ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 23:55                         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17  9:05                           ` Stefan Nobis
2020-11-17  9:15                             ` Loris Bennett
2020-11-17  9:32                             ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-17 14:29                             ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17 16:25                               ` Robert Pluim
2020-11-16 23:39                       ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16 21:35                     ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17  0:11                       ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide [this message]
2020-11-17  8:45                         ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-17  9:41                           ` Jean Louis
2020-11-17 15:33                     ` Maxim Nikulin
2020-11-16 13:00                 ` Uwe Brauer
2020-11-16 16:10                   ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide

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