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From: "Kévin Le Gouguec" <kevin.legouguec@gmail.com>
To: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert?
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 22:59:43 +0100
Message-ID: <87k0umjn74.fsf@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <X7EsgKZ3SmkHOORQ@protected.rcdrun.com> (Jean Louis's message of "Sun, 15 Nov 2020 16:26:25 +0300")

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> There is just slight difference, and that is what I learned from
> introduction to Org mode that it is "plain text" kind of mode. I can
> do and write how I wish. My habit comes from being used to indent when
> I want and then to follow indentation in that specific paragraph. That
> is really great.
>
> But I was not used to have it indented by programmer like the
> introduction of this new default feature, which I consider is not
> useful to be default.

Note that even before this change, Org's indentation already behaved
like a "programming mode".  TAB does not allow you to move to "any
column":

- either org-adapt-indentation is t (the default) and TAB moves your
  paragraph to column LEVEL+1,
- or it is nil, and TAB is a no-op.

> Observe this official presentation and you will see how current
> indentation is not consistent to what is shown:
> https://orgmode.org/resources/img/features/folding.gif
>
> Look at this official presentation and you will see that even headings
> are indented for which we say it should not be so:
> https://orgmode.org/resources/img/features/clocking.svg

Yep, AFAICT this has been produced with org-indent-mode, which
soft-indents using overlays.

> The official presentation here:
> https://orgmode.org/
>
> does not show any indentation at all.
>
> And in Info file I find nothing of it.

Yep; what this (along with the way org-adapt-indentation is unset in
Org's own repo) suggests to me is that Org, by default, should not
indent section bodies.

This means *not only* that RET should not indent, but that /TAB/ should
not rigidly indent to column LEVEL+1 (I don't have a strong opinion
about whether it should rigidly indent to column 0, or if it should
behave as in text-mode).

So AFAIU the issue lies not with RET becoming consistent with the rest
of Emacs and doing "insert newline then indent smartly"; rather it lies
with how Org defines "smartly".  From what I gather from this thread,
lots of folks would like Org to keep section bodies at column 0.

> All I say, when default is introduced, should be well documented how
> and why. Before it is introduced it is better to discuss wider with
> people.
>
> Few of people reading these exchanges may find how to turn it off,
> majority will not find it.

Before being applied, this change has been discussed on emacs-devel and
emacs-orgmode; it has then been documented in ORG-NEWS.  Which other
places do you think we should have reached out to?

>> IIUC this can be toggled off by setting org-adapt-indentation to nil;
>> FWIW this is what the .dir-locals.el file at the root of Org's
>> repository doe
>
> With 2000+ directories containing Org file of persons, held on this
> system that would mean turning it on 2000+ times. Because in general I
> do not use that type of indentation I have just set it in main
> ~/.emacs.d/init.el file.
>
> We concluded that configuring is easy and that is great.
>
> What is not concluded is that the default impacts too many people who
> may not find out how to configure it back and that designing user
> interface shall be made with more care.

I admit to not having put as much thought in a "migration plan" as I
could have.  My reasoning was that since Org indents text by default
(/when/ hitting TAB or using the "smart newline" command), users were
probably fine with it.

IIUC I failed to understand that:

- Plenty of Org users do not expect it to behave like programming modes
  wrt indentation (they might not even use programming modes).

    - These users were using RET as a "dumb newline" command, unaware
      that by default, Org considers that text should be indented.

- org-adapt-indentation…

    - exists (really, I just found out about it today, after wondering
      why on Earth Org does not indent text in doc/org-guide.org, and
      tracing it to the repository's directory-local variables).

    - has a default value that does not reflect how Org text is indented
      in official examples, nor in Org's own repository.


  reply	other threads:[~2020-11-15 22:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 76+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-11-13 17:30 Karl Voit
2020-11-13 21:10 ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-13 21:38   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14  3:02     ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-13 21:47   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-13 22:13     ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-13 22:21       ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14 17:28         ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-14 19:10           ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 12:44             ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-15 13:26               ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 21:59                 ` Kévin Le Gouguec [this message]
2020-11-15 22:15                   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-16  7:15                   ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16  6:26               ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-14 10:45   ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-13 21:31 ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14 22:43 ` David Rogers
2020-11-15  5:38   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15  7:47     ` David Rogers
2020-11-15  8:54       ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 10:37       ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-15 11:42         ` Tim Cross
2020-11-15 11:48         ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-15 11:58           ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-15 12:09           ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 14:50             ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-15 15:11               ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 10:44       ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-15 11:22         ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-15 14:03           ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-16  5:24             ` Kyle Meyer
2020-11-16  6:41               ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16  7:15                 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 11:21                   ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-16 23:24                     ` T.F. Torrey
2020-11-17  1:21                       ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-17  7:01                         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17  7:48                       ` Michal Politowski
2020-11-19  4:17                     ` Marcel Ventosa
2020-11-16  8:06                 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-16 12:10                 ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16  6:54               ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-16  7:12                 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17  4:03                   ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-17  5:25                     ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17 13:15                       ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-16  7:01               ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16  7:22                 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 16:04                   ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16 16:26                     ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 18:12                       ` gyro funch
2020-11-16 18:48                         ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 19:41                           ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16 19:56                             ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 21:50                             ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 23:01                               ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 21:44                           ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 18:20                       ` gyro funch
2020-11-16 20:56                       ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 21:35                         ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16 22:44                         ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 23:55                         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17  9:05                           ` Stefan Nobis
2020-11-17  9:15                             ` Loris Bennett
2020-11-17  9:32                             ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-17 14:29                             ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17 16:25                               ` Robert Pluim
2020-11-16 23:39                       ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16 21:35                     ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17  0:11                       ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17  8:45                         ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-17  9:41                           ` Jean Louis
2020-11-17 15:33                     ` Maxim Nikulin
2020-11-16 13:00                 ` Uwe Brauer
2020-11-16 16:10                   ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide

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