From: "Kévin Le Gouguec" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: Jean Louis <email@example.com> Cc: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Re: Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert? Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 22:59:43 +0100 Message-ID: <email@example.com> (raw) In-Reply-To: <X7EsgKZ3SmkHOORQ@protected.rcdrun.com> (Jean Louis's message of "Sun, 15 Nov 2020 16:26:25 +0300") Jean Louis <firstname.lastname@example.org> writes: > There is just slight difference, and that is what I learned from > introduction to Org mode that it is "plain text" kind of mode. I can > do and write how I wish. My habit comes from being used to indent when > I want and then to follow indentation in that specific paragraph. That > is really great. > > But I was not used to have it indented by programmer like the > introduction of this new default feature, which I consider is not > useful to be default. Note that even before this change, Org's indentation already behaved like a "programming mode". TAB does not allow you to move to "any column": - either org-adapt-indentation is t (the default) and TAB moves your paragraph to column LEVEL+1, - or it is nil, and TAB is a no-op. > Observe this official presentation and you will see how current > indentation is not consistent to what is shown: > https://orgmode.org/resources/img/features/folding.gif > > Look at this official presentation and you will see that even headings > are indented for which we say it should not be so: > https://orgmode.org/resources/img/features/clocking.svg Yep, AFAICT this has been produced with org-indent-mode, which soft-indents using overlays. > The official presentation here: > https://orgmode.org/ > > does not show any indentation at all. > > And in Info file I find nothing of it. Yep; what this (along with the way org-adapt-indentation is unset in Org's own repo) suggests to me is that Org, by default, should not indent section bodies. This means *not only* that RET should not indent, but that /TAB/ should not rigidly indent to column LEVEL+1 (I don't have a strong opinion about whether it should rigidly indent to column 0, or if it should behave as in text-mode). So AFAIU the issue lies not with RET becoming consistent with the rest of Emacs and doing "insert newline then indent smartly"; rather it lies with how Org defines "smartly". From what I gather from this thread, lots of folks would like Org to keep section bodies at column 0. > All I say, when default is introduced, should be well documented how > and why. Before it is introduced it is better to discuss wider with > people. > > Few of people reading these exchanges may find how to turn it off, > majority will not find it. Before being applied, this change has been discussed on emacs-devel and emacs-orgmode; it has then been documented in ORG-NEWS. Which other places do you think we should have reached out to? >> IIUC this can be toggled off by setting org-adapt-indentation to nil; >> FWIW this is what the .dir-locals.el file at the root of Org's >> repository doe > > With 2000+ directories containing Org file of persons, held on this > system that would mean turning it on 2000+ times. Because in general I > do not use that type of indentation I have just set it in main > ~/.emacs.d/init.el file. > > We concluded that configuring is easy and that is great. > > What is not concluded is that the default impacts too many people who > may not find out how to configure it back and that designing user > interface shall be made with more care. I admit to not having put as much thought in a "migration plan" as I could have. My reasoning was that since Org indents text by default (/when/ hitting TAB or using the "smart newline" command), users were probably fine with it. IIUC I failed to understand that: - Plenty of Org users do not expect it to behave like programming modes wrt indentation (they might not even use programming modes). - These users were using RET as a "dumb newline" command, unaware that by default, Org considers that text should be indented. - org-adapt-indentation… - exists (really, I just found out about it today, after wondering why on Earth Org does not indent text in doc/org-guide.org, and tracing it to the repository's directory-local variables). - has a default value that does not reflect how Org text is indented in official examples, nor in Org's own repository.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-11-15 22:00 UTC|newest] Thread overview: 76+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top 2020-11-13 17:30 Karl Voit 2020-11-13 21:10 ` Gustavo Barros 2020-11-13 21:38 ` Jean Louis 2020-11-14 3:02 ` Greg Minshall 2020-11-13 21:47 ` Jean Louis 2020-11-13 22:13 ` Gustavo Barros 2020-11-13 22:21 ` Jean Louis 2020-11-14 17:28 ` Diego Zamboni 2020-11-14 19:10 ` Jean Louis 2020-11-15 12:44 ` Kévin Le Gouguec 2020-11-15 13:26 ` Jean Louis 2020-11-15 21:59 ` Kévin Le Gouguec [this message] 2020-11-15 22:15 ` Jean Louis 2020-11-16 7:15 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide 2020-11-16 6:26 ` Greg Minshall 2020-11-14 10:45 ` Diego Zamboni 2020-11-13 21:31 ` Jean Louis 2020-11-14 22:43 ` David Rogers 2020-11-15 5:38 ` Jean Louis 2020-11-15 7:47 ` David Rogers 2020-11-15 8:54 ` Jean Louis 2020-11-15 10:37 ` Greg Minshall 2020-11-15 11:42 ` Tim Cross 2020-11-15 11:48 ` Gustavo Barros 2020-11-15 11:58 ` Detlef Steuer 2020-11-15 12:09 ` Jean Louis 2020-11-15 14:50 ` Gustavo Barros 2020-11-15 15:11 ` Jean Louis 2020-11-15 10:44 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide 2020-11-15 11:22 ` Detlef Steuer 2020-11-15 14:03 ` Kévin Le Gouguec 2020-11-16 5:24 ` Kyle Meyer 2020-11-16 6:41 ` Tim Cross 2020-11-16 7:15 ` Tim Cross 2020-11-16 11:21 ` Gustavo Barros 2020-11-16 23:24 ` T.F. Torrey 2020-11-17 1:21 ` Tom Gillespie 2020-11-17 7:01 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide 2020-11-17 7:48 ` Michal Politowski 2020-11-19 4:17 ` Marcel Ventosa 2020-11-16 8:06 ` Kévin Le Gouguec 2020-11-16 12:10 ` Bill Burdick 2020-11-16 6:54 ` Greg Minshall 2020-11-16 7:12 ` Tim Cross 2020-11-17 4:03 ` Greg Minshall 2020-11-17 5:25 ` Tim Cross 2020-11-17 13:15 ` Greg Minshall 2020-11-16 7:01 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide 2020-11-16 7:22 ` Tim Cross 2020-11-16 16:04 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide 2020-11-16 16:26 ` Tom Gillespie 2020-11-16 18:12 ` gyro funch 2020-11-16 18:48 ` Tom Gillespie 2020-11-16 19:41 ` Bill Burdick 2020-11-16 19:56 ` Tom Gillespie 2020-11-16 21:50 ` Tim Cross 2020-11-16 23:01 ` Tom Gillespie 2020-11-16 21:44 ` Tim Cross 2020-11-16 18:20 ` gyro funch 2020-11-16 20:56 ` Tim Cross 2020-11-16 21:35 ` Bill Burdick 2020-11-16 22:44 ` Tom Gillespie 2020-11-16 23:55 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide 2020-11-17 9:05 ` Stefan Nobis 2020-11-17 9:15 ` Loris Bennett 2020-11-17 9:32 ` Diego Zamboni 2020-11-17 14:29 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide 2020-11-17 16:25 ` Robert Pluim 2020-11-16 23:39 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide 2020-11-16 21:35 ` Tim Cross 2020-11-17 0:11 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide 2020-11-17 8:45 ` Detlef Steuer 2020-11-17 9:41 ` Jean Louis 2020-11-17 15:33 ` Maxim Nikulin 2020-11-16 13:00 ` Uwe Brauer 2020-11-16 16:10 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
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