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[106.69.91.192]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m5sm2084236pjc.10.2021.04.24.23.47.47 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 24 Apr 2021 23:47:48 -0700 (PDT) References: <87pmyuyssi.fsf@gmail.com> <87v98b0yvm.fsf@gnu.org> User-agent: mu4e 1.5.12; emacs 28.0.50 From: Tim Cross To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Concerns about community contributor support Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 16:17:23 +1000 In-reply-to: <87v98b0yvm.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <87lf96uagf.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::62d; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x62d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1619333297; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=WlzGAfUKDWjesDJoJEJHFgvQLf3ymwfNhxbXJxDkAyo=; b=i1IUV/b/b0g8S9DNEyk76M1zCCTvSW02A7sKdKkqVWh26mpcMyVvEkrvRdHnsxXJQehdj4 Au+Pk+VrHvQ7bY9Xu8TXUrb025JcIZMfEKONH/gDRXKxp/XaX0eKPQk28K21gr3dHAST8h WxiJR0p97ppQDLCYNPx0RsWf+13fBsK9WS/TL5BJxm+P0MlKsPA6AyMy2Mqa6REL9ujtPo T4oVLmC45FBeP6K8FEUbp4yeB6C1R/ddyH2A7JimbZcBxODwufBKmhMrc14zz7Ib9iOdot VLqf8J4PblC/BT8/dUEuOZcJcRx82PXwbVhHN9b42WuENSp0Xp9GSA+g4VrHlA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1619333297; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=gEnOeH4mWb09U38QiN3124rTLU4aRGbbFyjVNVZgBgXEnRx5XScje7oG9fbnYXXQinTMMj 29YntGnRbTg/nKOW3GxG78NJNCeQG38eeopOghrAOdIopYDtsDfV+s313xe52tNdZXvzXI m6nEBQOJB+RLfr0KOHja7hbNBujK5UVwkJtXky80esDWPAswsOX9pfT4EJwRuAQ1ZZd12C 4XV3wPQokuGSiVdAHVDNirpzEi5K1gMp0Fe44Vks7KDktHU5aI/xL2OV+je1H/uf1bKkaE 65+4I3KdEsWeRyXqSiW2mCqEHp4OralHBS1ahEzL2F7MhhWeBbaUvQMx0K1tlg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b="o/ZKGips"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.14 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b="o/ZKGips"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: C751EFA52 X-Spam-Score: -3.14 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: Crpr6KhlQoV9 Bastien writes: > Dear Timothy, > > thanks for raising this points so carefully, they are important. > > I see three distinct problems: > > 1. The lack of response and/or follow-up when people contribute by > sending bug reports or patches on the list. > > 2. The lack of maintainance on documenting the contribution process > and the correct expectations for future contributors. > > 3. The inherent difficulty to move the Org codebase forward. > > I won't comment on (3). For (1) and (2), I suggest appointing a > "contributor steward" with these responsibilities: > > 1. Maintain updates.orgmode.org (i.e. make sure it is accurate.) > 2. Maintain the documentation for contributors. > 3. Help contributors enhancing their patches. > 4. Try to reproduce bugs (and confirm them for updates.orgmode.org) > 5. Make sure patch contributors are not left with no answer. > > You started (1), which is really appreciated. > > Tim and others mentioned (2), and that's certainly needed too. > > (3) has historically been the role of the maintainer and of the core > contributors, but helping with this is very welcome: knowing the doc > at https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html by heart, educating > contributors on the commit messages, etc. This all helps. > > (4) is perhaps the most daunting task: I even think we could have > someone only dedicated to this very important task. Just count the > number of times Nicolas says "I cannot reproduce this." Each time, > there is a real bug that is *not* fixed... > > (5) is not about systematically welcome patch submitters with a > message (that would be annoying) but to monitor updates.orgmode.org > and decide what to do with a patch that didn't receive feedback: > either say thanks and ping the list for why you think the patch > deserves more attention, or thanks and dismiss the patch, or another > answer. > > What do you think? Would you be willing to take this role? > > If not, that's perfectly okay, I'll send a call for help. > Hi Bastien et. al. I agree and am willing to help if I can. One thing I do think would be helpful, particularly for documentation on maintenance of org mode, would be a clear outline of project goals and philosophy. Some of this would be 'concrete' statements, such as the minimum supported Emacs version, size of contribution and requirements to sign FSF copyright assignment paperwork, inclusion of acceptance tests, documentation, maintenance of backwards compatibility, API stability etc. Other parts would be more 'fuzzy' guidelines, such as avoiding complexity and 'blow out' in options/arguments, balancing features and maintainability, what should become part of org core and what should be in contributions or a completely separate add on package and what guidelines are used in assessing extensions/enhancements for inclusion etc. It will be challenging to define this as there are a wide diversity of views and priorities amongst the community. However, I think it would be an overall benefit for both the community and on-going development of org mode. While I would be happy to help with this, I think the initial content at least needs to come from current key maintainers and if possible, some input from Carsten would be good. -- Tim Cross