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[220.235.14.215]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p17sm529049pfw.202.2021.06.02.16.39.17 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 02 Jun 2021 16:39:18 -0700 (PDT) References: <1018710.1622659237@apollo2.minshall.org> User-agent: mu4e 1.5.13; emacs 27.2.50 From: Tim Cross To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: suggestion to change default org-latex-pdf-process to latexmk Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2021 09:28:49 +1000 In-reply-to: <1018710.1622659237@apollo2.minshall.org> Message-ID: <87mts76dlo.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::533; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-x533.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1622677202; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=N6TzCpCA15wiCdCW0oPMYeJYHF4fQsATAPZhfi1vVy0=; b=nLzX4e2v9LNUsQTh3reyuZiVdNclP1v9tmfvCPIgjQPVzdCeTptePnA/HbJoH7atH+8b9d jR5Ddtb5U9UJN4hCsCm9aifcfAGDGCag7nLDIZRSTMDbalmEUlOHrQ5gQ3n8pxTLrlDB7V Au/jst53LuSLaQ3z0OaZrbcyVhHcPeB1dABEQFF2accByE303Zb0ezvYYNePEEhOiDMrwV 2alCvDUYjof77Sp8/K6qGEIx9BqouuGGHYgDsSD0xlZtNFvn2RvxLfzbrPmN87qqW+93lb J2VWHIMhrlZ3R3v7J4tQ35Gu7N06VJElTU1epSwpbrXCn+ykvpqn1xv365tlLA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1622677202; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Yofo9c9HiY7lamxwJx6wCxywkr6alfde/QntZgTBtSriDOl6k4WCRSP7PY3vs07CXvaQpb 2hMpbJG0eSXeO9NcE3CWDUvRTx4dwcFxzmLXWH5ui/Fe0Z4OfCzA5KEoCK79YmiwdN7FGh xDCWyMeXYNWkbcaBVBgBLtRfNGDA/yHCda6jRt3tWXS52qPQzF+KL8DvrmzyMl01FstHkK G5psgZKNQ6d5wPr0qxfv2XELvYnPzbBPaaWIqPv7CWoBTjTaLqkZDEMZdiVf7dwe2dBD4E vLpZOvkHQ4GThT/A77IMFzy1nPiiUa8e95BXnhRIDcXbHgcOXpRYrmy0qtDO0g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=nRdCeYJz; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.13 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=nRdCeYJz; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 0E3FB10AEB X-Spam-Score: -3.13 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: 5YCAzOrWGXVZ Greg Minshall writes: > Bruce, > >> > I really don't understand why the changed is needed. >> >> I've stated it twice, I believe, but it's now a longer thread, so: >> >> Org is set to get native citation support. >> >> Once that's merged, people who use this feature will be disappointed >> to know that when using the natbib or biblatex export processors, >> their citations and bibliographies will not render. >> >> As in, from their perspective, it will be broken upfront. > > thanks. > > one important thing will be the manual section describing the new > capability -- it should highlight the desirability of using latexmk ("or > some process with similar behavior"), and describe the results one will > get without it. presumably, people will initially need to read this > section to figure out the syntax, etc.? > > i worry about breaking people's currently working setups. > > it seems there are N classes of users: > > 1. not using citation engine. > 2. using citation engine > 2a. ... and using default latex-to-pdf processing > 2b. ... having customized that processing > 2bi. ... in a way that works with new citation engine > 2bii. .. in a way that does *not* work with new citation engine > > class 1 could likely benefit from latexmk, but it's optional. > > class 2a is probably the main class that would find it really helpful to > have an automated latexmk. > > from *our* (the org-mode provider) point of view, i guess the 2b > subclasses are indistinguishable. so, if the user finds herself in > 2bii, she will have to grep the manual or the web. again, it would be > good if information in the manual stuck out. maybe a "TROUBLESHOOTING" > sub-section for the new feature? > > i wonder if we could detect 2a, and offer them the customization dialog? > (one would want the user to be able to click the "do not show me this > again" button, or equivalent.) > > packaging. :) > > cheers, Greg My suggestion is to do something like (defvar org-latex-pdf-process (if (executable-find "latexmk") '("latexmk -f -pdf -%latex -interaction=nonstopmode -output-directory=%o %f") '("%latex -interaction nonstopmode -output-directory %o %f" "%latex -interaction nonstopmode -output-directory %o %f" "%latex -interaction nonstopmode -output-directory %o %f"))) This is a simplistic example. It would need some refinement to work correctly with custom, but the principal is the same. With the above, the default would be latexmk if latexmk is installed and on the exec-path, otherwise it will be the default latex. We can make this as sophisticated as we want. For example, we could also check to verify the 'default' latex is available and issue a warning to the user if it isn't or issue a warning if none of the options are available etc. I believe something like the above would have the least impact as 1. It would have no impact on anyone who already sets a preference for org-latex-pdf-process 2. Would provide the advantages of latexmk for those who already have it installed or once they install it (assuming no preference has been set by the user) 3. Maintain the status quo for existing users who don't have latexmk installed, avoiding breakage of their current setup. Note that this is assuming that latexmk has no other 'side effects' not raised in this thread. I don't use latexmk, so don't know precisely what impact it would have, but based on posts from others, it would appear to be fine. -- Tim Cross