From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id iFn0Bhfzsl83RQAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 21:45:59 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id GHvEAhfzsl8vKQAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 21:45:59 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2078940118 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 21:45:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:41590 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kemJx-0006Tw-9L for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 16:45:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60546) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kemIo-0006T2-IT for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 16:44:48 -0500 Received: from mail-pf1-x433.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::433]:45191) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kemIm-0001eb-Az for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 16:44:46 -0500 Received: by mail-pf1-x433.google.com with SMTP id b63so11821508pfg.12 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 13:44:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=references:user-agent:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:message-id:date :mime-version; bh=CoGNyn2WRsnzcxta7vDKvugTCX1912a747aalikPyA8=; b=FdIj8v2lRuFPMxnjtxeNBYOb1QXH2AIz9CcWQEIkdnY2NsbDU9pv/DP2RpdHk5aqxV GNkQS9PqgBJIc10Ym4ZakmDwh4kE0b6fPTbwGDZl/FaVYd+uzsKfsn2nbMyrreb7hqOw D82SHVTeLMXu5M4amYhnzlvX/5WugHHMvnIzzh8GV0zr9mqv12mDBDjbicsA7X38Fv6n 39TbO+/marTLg7sY1W9fQWvSe+2/pFsyQQS4WHNQybi0W9EyUclFPvn5AwQZZXJKdyxS qlSAgFIYFf18H01G5xHY7Vk07VLWpcfgOve7rtaQ8gsBopQzWlCfnbl+HR/kD6Ow0jmQ xZSw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:subject :in-reply-to:message-id:date:mime-version; bh=CoGNyn2WRsnzcxta7vDKvugTCX1912a747aalikPyA8=; b=P9SM/S2CdqcjpSkpL2Hhymxox6Me5TitALqFhdVhu9leTKnjtCciqTG+rqKIxi4vpP UsY2nuGOMMO1xyZQFfIyDPcL4mfIy+fJ5hHrFWRlDT2BfuRJtQvzzL+CikUHo8zMpU9g smDQB+jIkzGuLzeMaHhnNWj4hxPuv+rXIonsVH6E/T9MSyx/uGsFUeoFg9JjYBytexf+ qh1SYocy/sNRalWxAMnzQVCRu5mDsLZN/2L89U+16PS0fd6OJC8/ipNZ+tyCD7UjO5nv 7TvIRVZ2+gfae3jrMre9DpU4aErLwspwn90VxnbYmSFJg1LTfF6iUc6n64VwH9m2Vu0X JU+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530hCcmBQ+OLNvlaEW5hJzU3/prX5nmRAiN0y/2HzN4cCYKyK52Y QxGjOfdPVFOun7Dl/+pRzSf/J1jpZKSUcw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzvwC8f5zAxBJuPZtEuuK6oOk0J1MviI2puC1K/eseRbQjD+RwDfAzLnrdcCVBX/zfxXHrXkQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:5f86:: with SMTP id t128mr959621pgb.385.1605563080906; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 13:44:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from tim-desktop (106-69-116-104.dyn.iinet.net.au. [106.69.116.104]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y5sm377473pja.52.2020.11.16.13.44.39 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 16 Nov 2020 13:44:40 -0800 (PST) References: <2020-11-13T18-23-43@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <874klqew77.fsf@web.de> <20201115122154.50ad1503@linux-h0yu.fritz.box> <87tutq67ka.fsf@gmail.com> <87tutpvppm.fsf@kyleam.com> <871rgtwzrs.fsf@web.de> <87y2j1ahqf.fsf@gmail.com> <87v9e5uw2u.fsf@web.de> <01c3b019-2703-6c0c-988a-7bdbbd7b8a96@gmail.com> User-agent: mu4e 1.5.7; emacs 27.1.50 From: Tim Cross To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert? In-reply-to: Message-ID: <87mtzh9dtn.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 08:44:36 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::433; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pf1-x433.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=FdIj8v2l; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -0.71 X-TUID: YFJYAxZwaBbT Tom Gillespie writes: > Semver is unlikely to help because the question is what is "broken" by > a change in version. Semver would likely be about breaking changes to > internal org apis, not changes to default behavior that affect users, > so you have two different "semantics" which put us right back where we > are now -- to know what really changed you have to read the NEWS. > Bastien has also talked about hear-ye versioning, which says when a > version changes users need to read the news. Best, > Tom > The 'hard' part of me says that if you upgrade org to a new major version, don't read the NEWS file and are then surprised by changes, you get what you deserve. Perhaps a tad too hard, but I do think users need to take more responsibility here. At the same time, I do think there are some things we could do to help them. I've mentioned in another message that the way MELPA and other repositories report versions is not helpful. All I get from the package names now is that a new version has arrived and the date it was released. There is no indication whether the new version is just bug fixes, new functionality or a major new version. I only know this by following this list. What can we do to encourage users to read the NEWS file? Would it be feasible to add code so that the first time someone opens an org file after a major version upgrade the NEWS file is displayed? Would it be useful to document ways of pinning package versions or implementing package rollback functionality? -- Tim Cross