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Dye" To: Timothy Subject: Re: Concerns about community contributor support In-reply-to: <87h7k42nf9.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 08:45:58 -1000 Message-ID: <87sg3n4ejd.fsf@tsdye.online> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box2035.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - tsdye.online X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 50.113.36.248 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1lYCQi-003s3V-Uf X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: cpe-50-113-36-248.hawaii.res.rr.com (poto-foou.tsdye.online) [50.113.36.248]:58744 X-Source-Auth: tsd@tsdye.online X-Email-Count: 2 X-Source-Cap: dHNkeWVvbmw7dHNkeWVvbmw7Ym94MjAzNS5ibHVlaG9zdC5jb20= X-Local-Domain: yes Received-SPF: pass client-ip=192.185.144.96; envelope-from=tsd@tsdye.online; helo=gateway31.websitewelcome.com X-Spam_score_int: 1 X-Spam_score: 0.1 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FROM_SUSPICIOUS_NTLD=0.175, PDS_OTHER_BAD_TLD=1.999, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1618771673; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=U9O2Bvjz5ioGB8rshHItkVeQ7fpOR3soYOdVUgk6P/I=; b=qDN68hgOIFUOnZv9nVamfRJ5wHNACwVt4xhyqqDtcV/JiAePgQNtfK5kgytpzUgFE093G2 1rSU6KGUACZiu4WeudtWCyrS/M4QgUU0qMdwsguJ1X0NsOY1cvNQnNY5FmFC9F5S4HJQCd FtS78JmE/kBQQ4Df/mCwbV9VJla+Ouidtyu9xbDSNN9USjxKJDVNGLTy2H5W1WR5AOEOhT o1Kw911+CrgedIWm2yR20OSpVCBb439Uc4Xu0fuTfUUbWftvsW6+ssjbscMoDQkFFzd0e4 529V+8tic2QLCr8TYOVJoKhahTsTpBx3KbgYNDG7k7DD6ntWJc2UayDSOXnR2g== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1618771673; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=X4URmJ5SbFaICGMaOTb6lxWXAb5nF7dEGkcTmn7PLlnDWW5Z4SwWAWHXoqU3m7VTPUQpr6 clgZ0pjExR6oO+GmUwUI5zgK9ARqbiTBGZAAyFmGwrwvLOK6xHYPG/MH1PC1z2388DzQY7 F/NhJq3UHULSz05LwnU027vGvq36/iqaY5DdLk7sO+xexdxfhC5k4f7PzUUTlnWWMhwp5i EMMMlbQIDkzq7WhsnL3AdY41CwbJfq34wrE/qF313FlaF2NizEYj5d7cMK+s6C1clZZy98 BImsXrtTMNv0cDeiszm+sFrp/TyR/Q9LT29PIaPlaBGrwrst+1NBbi3OE9/x6A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=tsdye.online header.s=default header.b=t4lkJUoD; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.44 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=tsdye.online header.s=default header.b=t4lkJUoD; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: C177D25B37 X-Spam-Score: -1.44 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: PhBQ2gDIWViZ Timothy writes: >> , but Org mode development is >> in a new phase that *requires* technique and is quicker to >> identify and filter >> out noise. > > Hmmm, what constitutes noise? > Good question. I suppose like most words the meaning changes over time. Early on, posts along the lines of "Wouldn't it be cool if Org mode would do this?" were given more space than they seem to be today. Tim Cross points out a project trajectory that appears to be common and would explain why. At a more concrete level, I can offer several of my posts to the list :) >> These changes mean that contributions need to be checked for >> contributions to >> Nicolas' project and also fit into the history of discussion >> and development. >> The Org mode project now resembles a scholarly discipline that >> moves slowly and >> deliberately toward a more or less well defined goal. The days >> when Carsten >> would bang out a new feature during his train ride home from >> work are gone. > > I think here there may have been a minor misunderstanding > /miscommunication. Reading this paragraph I get the sense you > read my > email as complaining about a delay in merging patches, however > this is a > separate ---if related--- point to what I intended to raise: the > lack of /response/ to patches. > > 1. Were I talking about merging: a more considered development > model, as > you describe above, can certainly see a protracted merge > delay. > However, 6 months for a minor feature addition [1], and 2 > months for > a minor bug fix [2] is not justified by a more considered > development > model IMO. > 2. (My main point) Even if development is slower, leaving a > first-time > contributor with /absolutely no response/, i.e. *zero* > replies to > their email *months* after they sent it (see [1] and [2] for > example, > and updates.orgmode.org for more) is not good enough IMO. We > should > be better. > So, something in between merging (or not) and appearing on the public list that Bastien keeps? > Once again, with reference to my earlier paragraph, IMO slowed > development is one thing, not responding at all to attempted > contributors for months on end another. It is the latter which I > seek to > improve. I can, have, and will try to help with this myself; but > I think > we would benefit from a "community effort" and a discussion on > what the > best way to improve this is. > What do you think of Tim Cross' suggestion that a way forward is for "new features and enhancements to be initially implemented as add on contribution packages rather than as extensions/enhancement to the core 'org-mode' package"? This sounds good to me, but I'm not much of a programmer and lack the ability to suss out its ramifications fully. I can see how it would ease Org mode maintenance, though. All the best, Tom -- Thomas S. Dye https://tsdye.online/tsdye