From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id qAaxJ4HZsl83IwAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 19:56:49 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id kFxoI4HZsl+MVgAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 19:56:49 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FB0C94021E for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 19:56:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:39644 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kekcI-0000T0-IY for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 14:56:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59462) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kekbq-0000Sc-Jt for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 14:56:18 -0500 Received: from mail-wm1-x336.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::336]:52373) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kekbo-0001Ua-Va for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 14:56:18 -0500 Received: by mail-wm1-x336.google.com with SMTP id 10so480932wml.2 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 11:56:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tsZgYn6xkhA5I94XN1HxOvhxKAwTpU4aaG52Qb8H3yI=; b=cWBygtLHyMEpPBhRSerBrQloTsXb1nzjfeKbLRdXPYzw8lYz059JOL0sOm2bWSCef+ yqa0Z0OpBnqBw3Dpfi95vxwQ71qvCpnP/eOgiJsTkzidmLlllRYmTDpTfZxepHXBrgK5 VObn9IKQY8iXVE6PqMERkTdO2d2vXv32coRtwrp2kPxJYpGb/pdD4WR9hkpZ64iYbIYY ageLwMi4vKZYIhuX7i8l36OGJHMBQIbdgXMIb4IdF73abpxkWFPfE5r2+I5Fp18YzkFH g6WpPB3osb1SuE5GdJG723rZ7xjTboVxSPzBA8s9CXW4jCimffzYGZDuWBFiktRnL+E6 pwYw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tsZgYn6xkhA5I94XN1HxOvhxKAwTpU4aaG52Qb8H3yI=; b=Bz3XM24cafvA3204bD8zaWwUM/ZlYukPjli+f9AheZIeWc9hgddYOM9l5w3rfXIGM8 OtASUY1cWFLKgxGginK2Owta9IbDuh6vfds/5y4ADWsqwA+69xMZtuvnYgg7/S4eWEi0 rEXaKbkdBdhFo6r2jdPm8gNU5ZUykN6Mg2NRQe+8871Z4w8vwE2Z14V7bWs27FosbUCL Cfh6+/JfwUXRqfh+zsD/iRbXwgHIybJey7vHqUbBq9Tg7W61AybH+ofT7lqEAQ0d5+uK 2KbwzlfQyiOuNX9n/0ZGwBIokPP++0Q9tcpABZJdR1+Fyrb0iDe4q42K4vVWWRvxXHzq wOvA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530c/DJ88FASnIVk/jC9caJGvRf8WV7PG+JM+fF6V871RgKHefdk rsoBvOTRZOOjXY3UR9BBQgeovN6dbPn9YZfb7gw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzZOLm4gziCKhuECf+cPo3wP7LBIjBxF5GFha25qNxBVKkd0rE9NeahLwuQ6XFWGWZd7EdjbgMD7IzWm96wy6Q= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:7e11:: with SMTP id z17mr565450wmc.83.1605556574812; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 11:56:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2020-11-13T18-23-43@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <874klqew77.fsf@web.de> <20201115122154.50ad1503@linux-h0yu.fritz.box> <87tutq67ka.fsf@gmail.com> <87tutpvppm.fsf@kyleam.com> <871rgtwzrs.fsf@web.de> <87y2j1ahqf.fsf@gmail.com> <87v9e5uw2u.fsf@web.de> <01c3b019-2703-6c0c-988a-7bdbbd7b8a96@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Tom Gillespie Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 14:56:03 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert? To: Bill Burdick Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::336; envelope-from=tgbugs@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x336.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: gyro funch , emacs-orgmode Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=cWBygtLH; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -0.71 X-TUID: Zdzb2FcYRWvY Right there with you. My primary org file has a section filled with rage when some default gets changed in org or some other part of Emacs. The vast majority of the time the underlying change was in the NEWS. Since there is already a habit of updating the NEWS it doesn't seem unreasonable to put all those changes somewhere in an elisp file that could restore old default behavior. On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 2:41 PM Bill Burdick wrote: > > Ugh, I update my emacs package pretty infrequently and I usually have 30 or more packages updating at a time -- I can't see wading through 30 NEWS files searching for landmines... > > > -- Bill > > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:10 PM Tom Gillespie wrote: >> >> Semver is unlikely to help because the question is what is "broken" by >> a change in version. Semver would likely be about breaking changes to >> internal org apis, not changes to default behavior that affect users, >> so you have two different "semantics" which put us right back where we >> are now -- to know what really changed you have to read the NEWS. >> Bastien has also talked about hear-ye versioning, which says when a >> version changes users need to read the news. Best, >> Tom >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 1:15 PM gyro funch wrote: >> > >> > On 11/16/2020 9:26 AM, Tom Gillespie wrote: >> > > Would it help if major releases maintained a mini-config that if added >> > > to init.el would allow users to retain old behavior? That way they >> > > wouldn't have to read the NEWS but could just add the relevant lines, >> > > or maybe even just call the org-old-default-behavior-9.1 or >> > > org-old-default-behavior-9.4. The workflow during development would be >> > > to account for any change to defaults in those functions. Thoughts? >> > > Tom >> > > >> > > >> > >> > I hate to open a new can of worms, but could semantic versioning be used >> > such that it is obvious when there are changes that are not backwards >> > compatible? >> > >> > -gyro >> > >> > >>