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From: Tom Gillespie <tgbugs@gmail.com>
To: "T.F. Torrey" <tftorrey@tftorrey.com>
Cc: emacs-orgmode <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert?
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 20:21:42 -0500
Message-ID: <CA+G3_POjdst+x-hTq_5+Zk8Un9gMhHn7SoMqW2UtStdK043_9g@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87a6vgq402.fsf@victor.tftorrey.com>

Terry,
   Thank you very much for the clear articulation of the problem,
it enable me to see what the issue is and find more and deeper
issues with the change.

Speaking as someone who was not affected by this change
due to the peculiarities of my config, let me say as a fairly
impartial participant, this change is completely broken and
it is clear upstream Emacs did zero due diligence on the
impact it would have for org-mode. The current implementation
of elastic-indent-mode is obviously broken for use in org.

What do I mean? Currently, electric-intent-mode t is actively
destructive in certain cases. Consider a headline created by *-space
or M-ret. If you then hit return (because you don't know what to call
that headline but have the idea you want to type) electric-intent-mode
will delete the trailing space making it no longer a headline!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHAT?! This is horrible broken behavior in org mode!

At the very least this must be fixed if electric-indent-mode is to be on
by default in org-mode. It is clear that electric-indent-mode as implemented,
is unsuitable for use in org-mode since it actively ignores significant trailing
whitespace.

The sane thing to do is to revert to electric-indent-mode nil at least until
the obvious brokeness is fixed, and even then, why make people undo
a stupid computer decision by typing backspace when they can just
as easily do what they mean by typing tab!??! We don't even have to
poll the community to figure out who is going to be forced to type more.

I don't mean to sound ungrateful to the folks who have worked to match
with upstream, but it is clear that upstream has done zero testing on
the impact of that change on org-mode (or any other mode for that matter).
Until the upstream behavior can be fixed or org can patch the brokenness
this needs to be reverted. Even then, why is the "smart" option that changes
the meaning of the bloody return key enabled by default? I will point back to
https://orgmode.org/list/87ees6fp8r.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr/ and state that
had I spotted this thread at the time, I would have spoken up to point out
that it would likely not be a welcome change, as this thread shows. The
good news is that all is not lost and now when users want electric-indent-mode
in org it will be consistent with upstream.

Best,
Tom


  reply	other threads:[~2020-11-17  1:22 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 76+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-11-13 17:30 Karl Voit
2020-11-13 21:10 ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-13 21:38   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14  3:02     ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-13 21:47   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-13 22:13     ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-13 22:21       ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14 17:28         ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-14 19:10           ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 12:44             ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-15 13:26               ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 21:59                 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-15 22:15                   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-16  7:15                   ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16  6:26               ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-14 10:45   ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-13 21:31 ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14 22:43 ` David Rogers
2020-11-15  5:38   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15  7:47     ` David Rogers
2020-11-15  8:54       ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 10:37       ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-15 11:42         ` Tim Cross
2020-11-15 11:48         ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-15 11:58           ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-15 12:09           ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 14:50             ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-15 15:11               ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 10:44       ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-15 11:22         ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-15 14:03           ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-16  5:24             ` Kyle Meyer
2020-11-16  6:41               ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16  7:15                 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 11:21                   ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-16 23:24                     ` T.F. Torrey
2020-11-17  1:21                       ` Tom Gillespie [this message]
2020-11-17  7:01                         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17  7:48                       ` Michal Politowski
2020-11-19  4:17                     ` Marcel Ventosa
2020-11-16  8:06                 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-16 12:10                 ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16  6:54               ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-16  7:12                 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17  4:03                   ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-17  5:25                     ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17 13:15                       ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-16  7:01               ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16  7:22                 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 16:04                   ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16 16:26                     ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 18:12                       ` gyro funch
2020-11-16 18:48                         ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 19:41                           ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16 19:56                             ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 21:50                             ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 23:01                               ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 21:44                           ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 18:20                       ` gyro funch
2020-11-16 20:56                       ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 21:35                         ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16 22:44                         ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 23:55                         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17  9:05                           ` Stefan Nobis
2020-11-17  9:15                             ` Loris Bennett
2020-11-17  9:32                             ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-17 14:29                             ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17 16:25                               ` Robert Pluim
2020-11-16 23:39                       ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16 21:35                     ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17  0:11                       ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17  8:45                         ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-17  9:41                           ` Jean Louis
2020-11-17 15:33                     ` Maxim Nikulin
2020-11-16 13:00                 ` Uwe Brauer
2020-11-16 16:10                   ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide

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