From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id gxT8LFZclF4rPgAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 12:34:30 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id kAa5CllclF4SEwAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 12:34:33 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3620A942BD4 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 12:34:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:43904 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jNyIG-00066G-Pk for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 08:34:28 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37728) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jNyHt-000666-NR for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 08:34:06 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jNyHs-00081r-G8 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 08:34:05 -0400 Received: from mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2d]:43677) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jNyHs-00081d-CX for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 08:34:04 -0400 Received: by mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com with SMTP id v129so2180896vkf.10 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 05:34:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zxkEAR6aEpDoZRKhT52MWKbpGvzHs7zo6/VE4xit7cs=; b=qLWAlLWLWYAWPVhhEYXp9bo+Mmi2G6MN/Ybt+7MC+e9Jpvrvmh4nQYHumMZns7JdRM EQc9RtaufAi21mgTUz16IbNY7zD9TeBpptMGa0KE/hPUORFHlrX9EeT0hFYW7SODMl36 dCt06m9VAjWUnniP9ifD9pwW5hoP5lMc4vjxI2oJctnTEnrNJe5tzqdJtNh6PrPKa8Lu pejt4yvpyXw1ai9XWACLnOpuzzYZCUMQEBvx86ypJAPooSMCo1dInDLLL0uWYN6xd2HJ TyemZ4ey4FSUUNnnIuDX7AwUQRCIHzKbnlngCNSxVk/J2r9LfID/cMRjJFGHWuliduCn wHCQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zxkEAR6aEpDoZRKhT52MWKbpGvzHs7zo6/VE4xit7cs=; b=SuTBxHxyfQWKDpdL4YoRhRu5+dvY3QmBeX0hL1XILRoGROh0VmopnJKHdtjhtfvfqO vOEWOD5CwNvj40z2OgJjXP5M79lEZdD/8FVo3g/UXRSyafa70ZrUcksttTdfT9F6YnMn KRd19LfqIrcSIDFiRT5ippBBpOFqcngiiYLcPv5J2GiN2g4PYTteQyyQRxpEW2NQKCpW rgsz4GSRuf66kQSQ42lhv78a4titKiMlsOtmPDfaK5UTs4UChmebyFcO01dj6y7GlIO+ 8BCTVEbpyZp4+MhZ+rQ9Fvfdom57RRrScr9umBTpPDVHSb+/75lFlvpQfpCxw+Yugl7k y/dA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYafUSsEQG+XWu68LsNeW1VDoQ/ZywtzYyjpw2S9ueGsupD/x7p SC9DG59E/GQ8sIhx33217z5gwfLWonmHHOytmtg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKpQ/WAeXrY45Gx12JT9ax9IGOrMR/VtBGJMjeD17H+qdEKwINeCRmQ+Dq86GD55jHU7Y6IvwgtDL1SdlYw2Ko= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:4342:: with SMTP id q63mr7455864vka.88.1586781243298; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 05:34:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87o8s389r0.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <874ktu8gr9.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> In-Reply-To: From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 08:33:51 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: wip-cite status question and feedback To: =?UTF-8?Q?Gustav_Wikstr=C3=B6m?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2d X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Joost Kremers , "emacs-orgmode@gnu.org" , =?UTF-8?Q?Andr=C3=A1s_Simonyi?= , Nicolas Goaziou , John Kitchin Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: scn0 X-Spam-Score: 1.59 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail (rsa verify failed) header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=qLWAlLWL; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Scan-Result: default: False [1.59 / 13.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; GENERIC_REPUTATION(0.00)[-0.57732264637956]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.51.188.0/24:c]; R_DKIM_REJECT(1.00)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; IP_REPUTATION_HAM(0.00)[asn: 22989(0.28), country: US(-0.01), ip: 209.51.188.17(-0.58)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:-]; MX_GOOD(-0.50)[cached: eggs.gnu.org]; MAILLIST(-0.20)[mailman]; FORGED_RECIPIENTS_MAILLIST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:22989, ipnet:209.51.188.0/24, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[larch=yhetil.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[bdarcus@gmail.com,emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[emacs-orgmode@gnu.org]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_LIST_UNSUB(-0.01)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[fastmail.fm,gnu.org,gmail.com,nicolasgoaziou.fr,andrew.cmu.edu]; FORGED_SENDER_MAILLIST(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[gmail.com : SPF not aligned (relaxed),none] X-TUID: rpeY7LN6oT67 On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 8:05 AM Gustav Wikstr=C3=B6m wrote= : > I'm curious. So take this for what it is; I.e. curiosity. What /exactly/ = is meant with a citation here? Is it a new general concept in Org mode, or = is it something more narrow, as an extension for some specific third party = software? Would I be able to use it without that third party software? What= would the content of a citation be? Is it a link to some source plus annot= ations and formatting? Is it only the link? Is it also the formatting? Is i= t something else entirely? I'm wondering since Org mode has existing facili= ties for much of this already. But maybe not packaged together for citation= s just yet? Is there any purpose of thinking of citations as a wrapper for = already existing functionality? Or could the links-syntax be extended with = more properties and auxiliary functionality to fulfill the need for citatio= ns? I'm not sure of the value of this sort of question thrown in the middle of a long-running, many year, conversation. You seem to assume nobody considered this. But to answer anyway ... Citations are references to bibliographic sources. They are a convention for citing references that developed over decades, and even centuries, before the internet even existed. So, they are links of sorts, but lot more. They're complicated because of the addition of diverse, prescriptive, and often obscure output formatting requirements, and also because we have to include additional information beyond just the source. For example, if I cite some thing, I may need to include page number references; like (Doe, 2018:18). This says, X info from the Doc, 2018 source, page 18. So practically, if I submit a manuscript to one journal, it has one set of formatting requirements; perhaps the above citation style, and then a separate bibliography style. If it's rejected and I resubmit it to another journal, it will have a different set of formatting requirements; perhaps citations look like this instead (Doe, 2018 p. 18), or are rendered as footnotes. So we use these systems to decouple authoring from those output requirement= s. One can say that academic citation practice is inflexible and archaic, and one would be right. But it's the world we live in, and very slow to change. 100 years from now it likely won't look too different! Effectively, I see this long thread, and similar ones before it, as how best to reconcile well-known requirements as reflected in existing systems, but to do so in a way that fits with org. I think we're close! HTH. Bruce