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From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
To: Gustavo Barros <gtvbrs@gmail.com>
Cc: Greg Minshall <minshall@umich.edu>,
	David Rogers <davidandrewrogers@gmail.com>,
	Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at>,
	emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, Karl Voit <news2042@Karl-Voit.at>
Subject: Re: Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert?
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 15:09:53 +0300
Message-ID: <X7EakSvhaVLSLppV@protected.rcdrun.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87y2j2u9g7.fsf@gmail.com>

* Gustavo Barros <gtvbrs@gmail.com> [2020-11-15 14:49]:
:PROPERTIES:
:CREATED:  [2020-11-15 Sun 15:09]
:ID:       fef3cdfd-8870-4471-bcc7-4d690bfaceb2
:END:
> I'm quite surprised by the reaction to this issue, because
> `electric-indent-mode' *does not change Org's indentation settings*, it
> just applies them alongside RET.  Which makes me think that those who've
> been so bitten by it where actually manually overriding (their own)
> settings in this area by never applying indentation.  If that's your
> case, you'd probably be very surprised of running `org-indent-region' in
> your documents (don't do it, I don't want to break them).
> 
> In particular, one "surprising" result of the "new behavior" is that of
> indentation after a heading.  That was already and continues to be
> controlled by the user option `org-adapt-indentation'.  If you don't
> want your content to be indented after a heading, set it to nil.  And
> `electric-indent-mode' should do what you expect in this regard.

That is useful.

What is not useful is introducing default to thousands of users
without asking at least 1% of them. I have 2456 Org files on my system
and inconsistency introduced only on my system also affects people
like me and those who receive Org files produced on my system.

What about other users among 1% of them...

I propose that NEWS and Info files shall include pointers from
indentation descriptions to that option, as authors considered
including function to turn off electric indent mode, while it is now
obvious that this function here already does the work. So
documentation and NEWS shall be updated.

> An example from Greg:
> 
> > -----
> > * i wanted a headline<RET>
> >   * i wanted a subhead, but it's ignored by org mode
> > -----
> 
> That's because the first one is indeed a heading, and the second is not,
> it is a plain list item.  By definition a heading must start at the
> left margin.

That I did not know. Maybe I remember wrong but back in time even
indented headings worked. Now I have tested it they do not work, so
they need to be on the first column on left side.

Side thought: what about hebrew and arabic, how does Org mode work for
those languages?

> You (plural) could probably also get some juice from looking into, and
> incorporating to muscle memory, `M-RET', `C-RET' and `C-j'.

I do, thank you for reminder. Us in plural are sometimes teachers or
mentors who educate other people who are supposed to edit Org files in
most simple manner, and those people will never be able to write to
this list to find out which option where, not even to know about
indentation things. When default is introduced then all people
following an educator has to turn off default. They will not even know
why. One default introduced can cause butterfly effect.

General design of user interface should not conquer their habits
unless substantial amount of users have demanded it so.

> Of course, with that said, if you really don't like
> `electric-indent-mode' for Org, you can disable it as described in
> the Org News, previously linked to in this thread.  There is ground
> to prefer this, particularly for the list case, mentioned by Karl in
> the original message of this thread.  But `electric-indent-mode'
> does not induce a new pattern of indentation for Org, it just
> applies your settings in this area, whose defaults have not changed
> of recent, as far as I recall.  Finally, the "change" was not
> brought about by Org, but by Emacs.  Org just (belatedly) tagged
> along.  Best regards, Gustavo.

For me is now better to simple adjust: org-indent-region variable just
as you said.

Thank you for references.



  parent reply	other threads:[~2020-11-15 12:48 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 76+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-11-13 17:30 Karl Voit
2020-11-13 21:10 ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-13 21:38   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14  3:02     ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-13 21:47   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-13 22:13     ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-13 22:21       ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14 17:28         ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-14 19:10           ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 12:44             ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-15 13:26               ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 21:59                 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-15 22:15                   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-16  7:15                   ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16  6:26               ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-14 10:45   ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-13 21:31 ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14 22:43 ` David Rogers
2020-11-15  5:38   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15  7:47     ` David Rogers
2020-11-15  8:54       ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 10:37       ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-15 11:42         ` Tim Cross
2020-11-15 11:48         ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-15 11:58           ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-15 12:09           ` Jean Louis [this message]
2020-11-15 14:50             ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-15 15:11               ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 10:44       ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-15 11:22         ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-15 14:03           ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-16  5:24             ` Kyle Meyer
2020-11-16  6:41               ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16  7:15                 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 11:21                   ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-16 23:24                     ` T.F. Torrey
2020-11-17  1:21                       ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-17  7:01                         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17  7:48                       ` Michal Politowski
2020-11-19  4:17                     ` Marcel Ventosa
2020-11-16  8:06                 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-16 12:10                 ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16  6:54               ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-16  7:12                 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17  4:03                   ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-17  5:25                     ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17 13:15                       ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-16  7:01               ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16  7:22                 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 16:04                   ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16 16:26                     ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 18:12                       ` gyro funch
2020-11-16 18:48                         ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 19:41                           ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16 19:56                             ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 21:50                             ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 23:01                               ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 21:44                           ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 18:20                       ` gyro funch
2020-11-16 20:56                       ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 21:35                         ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16 22:44                         ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 23:55                         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17  9:05                           ` Stefan Nobis
2020-11-17  9:15                             ` Loris Bennett
2020-11-17  9:32                             ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-17 14:29                             ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17 16:25                               ` Robert Pluim
2020-11-16 23:39                       ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16 21:35                     ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17  0:11                       ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17  8:45                         ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-17  9:41                           ` Jean Louis
2020-11-17 15:33                     ` Maxim Nikulin
2020-11-16 13:00                 ` Uwe Brauer
2020-11-16 16:10                   ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide

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