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From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
To: Detlef Steuer <steuer@hsu-hh.de>
Cc: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <arne_bab@web.de>,
	Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com>,
	emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert?
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 12:41:41 +0300
Message-ID: <X7Oa1b3zb55jzFmM@protected.rcdrun.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20201117094535.24abd128@linux-h0yu.fritz.box>

* Detlef Steuer <steuer@hsu-hh.de> [2020-11-17 11:47]:
:PROPERTIES:
:CREATED:  [2020-11-17 Tue 12:41]
:ID:       2bc18302-d009-4751-b062-b3cf2aa44d18
:END:
> It is *impossible* to force users to be informed. Think about us: We
> all hang around on this list and missed the information. What would
> reasonably be expected from a casual user? Often it is not even clear
> what the consequences are, even if you read the NEWS. "Org now uses
> electric-indent" only is meaningful to very few people who can guess
> what that will mean for their workflow.

News in Org mode is already very prominent, but I never read it. It is
in the Org Menu documentation sub menu that leads to the website. But
I would say it is much better having NEWS locally as not everybody has
Internet with Org mode.

News for specific user should refer to changes from previous version
of that user. Not every user will have same Org version. They will not
understand news if it refers to higher version which they may not
have. Org is distributed over many communication channels together
with Emacs. Users of many GNU/Linux distributions and FreeBSD and
other BSD derivatives are getting it packaged, there are many
different versions.

NEWS could be made more prominent by adding NEWS links to Org Info
file. I could not find any. So it is not hyperlinks. Logically the Org
documentation should link to Org news and hereby I do not mean to link
to the website but to link to the relevant news pertaining to specific
version of Org, and such file should be together with the Org distribution.

It is on my side in:
/package/text/emacs-2020-11-14/share/emacs/28.0.50/etc/ORG-NEWS

But does ANYTHING within Org mode points there to that file? I do not
think user will find the relevant news.

How is user to find the reference if reference is not given?

I am using Emacs development version from 2020-11-14, 3 days ago. The
ORG-NEWS is explaining about Org version 9.3 as that is what I wish to
read as I am on that version (probably).

Org menu, submenu Documentation is pointing to Browse News that is
showing me Org news for version 9.4. That is not consistent as version
9.3 should not show me news for version 9.4.

But then if I look into newer Org package installed I can even see
news for version 9.5 and it says there "not yet released".

From my personal view point this is all fine. I am speaking from
interface design and consistency.

The link from Org menu could maybe point to the specific local file
ORG-NEWS for the specific version installed. That way users on version
9.2 would see news for version 9.2. Those for version 9.3 see for 9.3
and so on. It makes things consistent.

Users on this mailing list are power users. There are thousands of
users who may not have neither power nor Internet to install new
packages or update packages. They get it delivered through Emacs and
use Emacs on the multi user system.

Emacs is part of GNU system. That means somebody as administrator
installs the OS and OS is used for example in multi user
environment. Such environment need not have Internet access neither
would install new versions of Org as the version of Emacs from GNU
Linux distribution "just works". We have to think of all those users
and design should drive itself for developers or power users only.

Emacs version on GNU Hyperbola/Linux-libre is 25.3-3.hyperbola2 and I
do not know which Org version is inside. This version I have installed
in multi user environment. Why should a staff member using that
version, which is functional, be looking into news pertaining to
version 9.4 on the website which does not relate to version on the
system? It is not consistent. And such member would not be even able
to see the news on the website because computer is not connected to
Internet.

NEWS could be made more prominent to system administrators who install
the package by placing some notices in commentary of the package, or
where exactly? When I install the package or in package description
there could be link to the news or notice that NEWS shall be read.



  reply	other threads:[~2020-11-17  9:48 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 76+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-11-13 17:30 Karl Voit
2020-11-13 21:10 ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-13 21:38   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14  3:02     ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-13 21:47   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-13 22:13     ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-13 22:21       ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14 17:28         ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-14 19:10           ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 12:44             ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-15 13:26               ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 21:59                 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-15 22:15                   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-16  7:15                   ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16  6:26               ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-14 10:45   ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-13 21:31 ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14 22:43 ` David Rogers
2020-11-15  5:38   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15  7:47     ` David Rogers
2020-11-15  8:54       ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 10:37       ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-15 11:42         ` Tim Cross
2020-11-15 11:48         ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-15 11:58           ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-15 12:09           ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 14:50             ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-15 15:11               ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 10:44       ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-15 11:22         ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-15 14:03           ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-16  5:24             ` Kyle Meyer
2020-11-16  6:41               ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16  7:15                 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 11:21                   ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-16 23:24                     ` T.F. Torrey
2020-11-17  1:21                       ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-17  7:01                         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17  7:48                       ` Michal Politowski
2020-11-19  4:17                     ` Marcel Ventosa
2020-11-16  8:06                 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-16 12:10                 ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16  6:54               ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-16  7:12                 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17  4:03                   ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-17  5:25                     ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17 13:15                       ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-16  7:01               ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16  7:22                 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 16:04                   ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16 16:26                     ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 18:12                       ` gyro funch
2020-11-16 18:48                         ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 19:41                           ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16 19:56                             ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 21:50                             ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 23:01                               ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 21:44                           ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 18:20                       ` gyro funch
2020-11-16 20:56                       ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 21:35                         ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16 22:44                         ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 23:55                         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17  9:05                           ` Stefan Nobis
2020-11-17  9:15                             ` Loris Bennett
2020-11-17  9:32                             ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-17 14:29                             ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17 16:25                               ` Robert Pluim
2020-11-16 23:39                       ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16 21:35                     ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17  0:11                       ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17  8:45                         ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-17  9:41                           ` Jean Louis [this message]
2020-11-17 15:33                     ` Maxim Nikulin
2020-11-16 13:00                 ` Uwe Brauer
2020-11-16 16:10                   ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide

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