Continuation of main section text after subsections ?

Continuation of main section text after subsections ?

[Marcel van der Boom]

Hi,

When I'm using orgmode to write out largish documents, I often run into
the outlining problem that it's apparently not possible to continue
text of a higher level outline once subsections have been started. 

A simplified example of such an outline would be:

--- 
* Main headline
  Some thoughts expressed here

** Subheading 1
   More thoughts expressed here
** Subheading 2
   More thoughts expressed here

 I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of
 'Subheading 2'
----

I've looked for documentation or customization options on this, but
haven't found any yet. What I have done so far is turn the subheadings
into lists or surround them by *bold markers*, which helps a little.

The current outlining interrupts my flow of writing too often; it's
getting a nuisance. What are my options, if any, to get the outline
behaviour as above?

marcel

-- 
Marcel van der Boom  -- http://hsdev.com/mvdb.vcf
HS-Development BV    -- http://www.hsdev.com
So! web applications -- http://make-it-so.info
Cobra build          -- http://cobra.mrblog.nl

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?

[Jambunathan K]

> --- 
> * Main headline
>   Some thoughts expressed here
>
> ** Subheading 1
>    More thoughts expressed here
> ** Subheading 2
>    More thoughts expressed here
>
>  I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of
>  'Subheading 2'
> ----

Why is copy pasting not an option ... 

My intention is not to tick you off but I am confused about what you are
trying to say here.

Jambunathan K.

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?

[William Gardella]

Marcel van der Boom <marcel@hsdev.com> writes:

> On zo 27-mrt-2011 16:52
> Cian <cian.oconnor@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You can't do that, as it would be akin to trying to have in a book
>> 
>> Section 1
>> Stuff
>> Section 1.1.1
>> More stuff
>> 
>> Now this goes under Section 1
>> 
>> Not really an idiom that makes sense (I find its best to think of
>> org-mode's headings as chapter headers
>
> Agreed, for paper books that would not make much sense (depending on
> how you do it) and that fact kept me from asking the question for a
> while. 
> For electronic texts however, especially in the drafting stage where
> (sub-)sections get shuffled around, promoted, demoted, split etc. it
> does make sense, to me at least.
>
> When writing I tend to think about org headings as 'handles' to a
> logical block of information, including its child blocks. Apparently my
> analogy clashes with what org-mode wants. I had my hopes on a
> customization option. 
>
> Is there a strong reason this could not work as an option in org-mode?
>
> marcel

Marcel,

I think this is not yet easily possible in org-mode due to the
limitations of org's rather simple concept of markup.  Because org tries
to stay out of the way of the user's choice of indentation flow, for
example, whitespace can't be used to indicate that your text has
returned to the top level after entering a subheading.  And unlike in,
e.g., HTML or LaTeX, there's no way of "closing" the subheading
environment explicitly.

As Cian suggests, some alternatives you can use are to employ drawers or
environments such as #+BEGIN_NOTE.

I also use Org as a drafting tool, mostly for documents that will end up
as papers or legal documents rendered with LaTeX.  There are a few
ambiguities in the markup that are hard to resolve without going the
additional step of exporting to HTML or LaTeX and editing that output.
You've just stumbled into one of them...

-- 
William Gardella
J.D. Candidate
Class of 2011, University of Pittsburgh School of Law

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?

[Rustom Mody]

Marcel wrote:
> When I'm using orgmode to write out largish documents, I often run into
> the outlining problem that it's apparently not possible to continue
> text of a higher level outline once subsections have been started.

Here's a not-so-pretty hack to get what (I guess) you want
------------
* Main headline
** Main headline contents
   Some thoughts expressed here
*** Subheading 1
    More thoughts expressed here
*** Subheading 2
    More thoughts expressed here
** main headline contents1
    Not exactly part of Main headline but of Main headline contentsi
for some i

--------------

The idea basically is to split your heading into a heading proper and
a (series of) contents headlines.
The actual subheadings go 1 level deeper than your original (logical?)
intention.
You could of course in principle apply the same principle recursively
to the (original) sub headlines though in practice I guess you would
only need do that to the large sections.

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?

[William Gardella]

Marcel van der Boom <marcel@hsdev.com> writes:

> On zo 27-mrt-2011 16:52
> Cian <cian.oconnor@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You can't do that, as it would be akin to trying to have in a book
>> 
>> Section 1
>> Stuff
>> Section 1.1.1
>> More stuff
>> 
>> Now this goes under Section 1
>> 
>> Not really an idiom that makes sense (I find its best to think of
>> org-mode's headings as chapter headers
>
> Agreed, for paper books that would not make much sense (depending on
> how you do it) and that fact kept me from asking the question for a
> while. 
> For electronic texts however, especially in the drafting stage where
> (sub-)sections get shuffled around, promoted, demoted, split etc. it
> does make sense, to me at least.
>
> When writing I tend to think about org headings as 'handles' to a
> logical block of information, including its child blocks. Apparently my
> analogy clashes with what org-mode wants. I had my hopes on a
> customization option. 
>
> Is there a strong reason this could not work as an option in org-mode?
>
> marcel

Marcel,

I think this is not yet easily possible in org-mode due to the
limitations of org's rather simple concept of markup.  Because org tries
to stay out of the way of the user's choice of indentation flow, for
example, whitespace can't be used to indicate that your text has
returned to the top level after entering a subheading.  And unlike in,
e.g., HTML or LaTeX, there's no way of "closing" the subheading
environment explicitly.

As Cian suggests, some alternatives you can use are to employ drawers or
environments such as #+BEGIN_NOTE.

I also use Org as a drafting tool, mostly for documents that will end up
as papers or legal documents rendered with LaTeX.  There are a few
ambiguities in the markup that are hard to resolve without going the
additional step of exporting to HTML or LaTeX and editing that output.
You've just stumbled into one of them...

I'd support some kind of fix, but it'd be moderately to very involved
and far beyond my level of comfort with Elisp.  I also agree that it'd
be hard to specify.

-- 
William Gardella
J.D. Candidate
Class of 2011, University of Pittsburgh School of Law

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?

[Nicolas]

Hello,

"Filippo A. Salustri" <salustri@ryerson.ca> writes:

> The workaround I use is to use lists instead of headlines.  The
> problem then becomes the extra work of turning lists into
> headines+text later.

What about using C-c C-* on the list?

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?

[Filippo A. Salustri]

Yes, of course.  But it's still something *I* have to do as a separate
task.  This breaks my cognitive workflow; it's a distraction.  One of
the reasons I use org is that it's so distraction-free compared to
every other tool I've tried.  It seems like distraction-freeness is a
big deal in org, so I would have thought that every bit of distraction
is a distraction too many.

Cheers.
Fil

On 27 March 2011 13:08, Nicolas <n.goaziou@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> "Filippo A. Salustri" <salustri@ryerson.ca> writes:
>
>> The workaround I use is to use lists instead of headlines.  The
>> problem then becomes the extra work of turning lists into
>> headines+text later.
>
> What about using C-c C-* on the list?
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Nicolas
>



-- 
Filippo A. Salustri, Ph.D., P.Eng.
Mechanical and Industrial Engineering
Ryerson University
350 Victoria St, Toronto, ON
M5B 2K3, Canada
Tel: 416/979-5000 ext 7749
Fax: 416/979-5265
Email: salustri@ryerson.ca
http://deseng.ryerson.ca/~fil/

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?

[William Gardella]

"Filippo A. Salustri" <salustri@ryerson.ca> writes:

> It seems to me we're getting into some real design territory here, in
> that it comes down to a question of a "proper" outline.
> I agree that a proper outline is such that Marcel's format is "improper."
> I agree that org follows the proper outline, was designed to suit it,
> and therefore it isn't surprising that it's not trivially easy to
> support Marcel's format too.
>
> I would humbly suggest that the real question is a design / use case
> question.  Is it reasonable to expect authors to stick to proper
> outline format throughout their drafting process?  If it is, then org
> is fine as is.  If it isn't, then there's a problem.
>
> /How/ it's implemented, or worked around, as the case may be, is,
> imho, irrelevant in the long term (tho certainly useful in the short).
>
> Cheers.
> Fil
>

I think org-mode should aim to be flexible enough to accomodate all
writers, writing tasks, and writing styles.  Maybe for this particular
issue it would be enough to give org-mode an explicit way to "close" a
heading--an Org-wide equivalent to \end{section} in LaTeX, say.  Of
course it would have to be as pithy and unobtrusive as the rest of
org-mode syntax...I'm sure it's possible (because with Elisp practically
everything is possible), but out of my depth. :)

-- 
William Gardella
J.D. Candidate
Class of 2011, University of Pittsburgh School of Law

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?

[Achim Gratz]

William Gardella <gardellawg@gmail.com> writes:
> I think org-mode should aim to be flexible enough to accomodate all
> writers, writing tasks, and writing styles.

With flexibility comes complexity, which runs counter to "org should be
simple".

>  Maybe for this particular issue it would be enough to give org-mode
> an explicit way to "close" a heading--an Org-wide equivalent to
> \end{section} in LaTeX, say.

There already is: you simply start a new section for each "thought",
preferrably wih no whitespace after the heading so it becomes a visual
unit that just folds away when outlined.  I've been doing that with
Outline Mode and AuCTeX and it is actually much easier to do in orgmode.
Once you get your thoughts into the proper order by sorting the
"headlines", you can then insert, remove, edit, de- and promote the
headings to finalize the document into something more readable.  In my
experience, there rarely is a need to change the first level structure.
However, if you are organizing the structure of your document while the
content is still largely absent, then (as has already been suggested) it
is easier in orgmode to do that in a list.  List items can be converted
into headings and vice versa quite easily.


Regards,
Achim.
-- 
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

Waldorf MIDI Implementation & additional documentation:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfDocs

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?

[William Gardella]

Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> writes:

> William Gardella <gardellawg@gmail.com> writes:
>> I think org-mode should aim to be flexible enough to accomodate all
>> writers, writing tasks, and writing styles.
>
> With flexibility comes complexity, which runs counter to "org should be
> simple".
>

Agreed, but I'd say org is already one of the most complex projects in
Emacs.  Its *apparent* simplicity for new victims--er, users--is a
feature worth keeping, of course. :)

>>  Maybe for this particular issue it would be enough to give org-mode
>> an explicit way to "close" a heading--an Org-wide equivalent to
>> \end{section} in LaTeX, say.
>
> There already is: you simply start a new section for each "thought",
> preferrably wih no whitespace after the heading so it becomes a visual
> unit that just folds away when outlined.  I've been doing that with
> Outline Mode and AuCTeX and it is actually much easier to do in orgmode.
> Once you get your thoughts into the proper order by sorting the
> "headlines", you can then insert, remove, edit, de- and promote the
> headings to finalize the document into something more readable.  In my
> experience, there rarely is a need to change the first level structure.
> However, if you are organizing the structure of your document while the
> content is still largely absent, then (as has already been suggested) it
> is easier in orgmode to do that in a list.  List items can be converted
> into headings and vice versa quite easily.
>
>
> Regards,
> Achim.

I use a workflow similar to this, using subheadings to allow for easier
reordering of paragraphs/thoughts.  I guess it's good to keep in mind
that using Org as a word processor (rather like using Gnus as a
mailclient) requires some rethinking and reevaluation of how one might
otherwise do things.  And maybe a change in approach is a better idea
when a technical fix might make org's markup or parser unnecessarily
complex.

-- 
William Gardella
J.D. Candidate
Class of 2011, University of Pittsburgh School of Law

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?

[Matt Lundin]

Marcel van der Boom <marcel@hsdev.com> writes:

> When I'm using orgmode to write out largish documents, I often run into
> the outlining problem that it's apparently not possible to continue
> text of a higher level outline once subsections have been started. 
>
> A simplified example of such an outline would be:
>
> --- 
> * Main headline
>   Some thoughts expressed here
>
> ** Subheading 1
>    More thoughts expressed here
> ** Subheading 2
>    More thoughts expressed here
>
>  I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of
>  'Subheading 2'
> ----

Would this work? 

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
 * Main headline
   Some thoughts expressed here

 ** Subheading 1
    More thoughts expressed here
 ** Subheading 2
    More thoughts expressed here
 ** Main headline (cont.)

  I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of
  'Subheading 2'
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

> I've looked for documentation or customization options on this, but
> haven't found any yet. What I have done so far is turn the subheadings
> into lists or surround them by *bold markers*, which helps a little.

Org-mode's assumptions about sections are the same as those found in
outlines in general or in books or articles -- i.e., a section is
terminated only another section.

For nested sections you could always use xml to write your papers. ;)

> The current outlining interrupts my flow of writing too often; it's
> getting a nuisance. What are my options, if any, to get the outline
> behaviour as above?

Apart from the hack above, I would recommend inline tasks.

 **************** Subheading 1
  More thoughts expressed here
 **************** END

Best,
Matt

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?

[Matt Lundin]

William Gardella <gardellawg@gmail.com> writes:
>
> I think org-mode should aim to be flexible enough to accomodate all
> writers, writing tasks, and writing styles.  Maybe for this particular
> issue it would be enough to give org-mode an explicit way to "close" a
> heading--an Org-wide equivalent to \end{section} in LaTeX, say.  

Is there an \end{section} in LaTeX?

Best,
Matt

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?

[Rasmus]

> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
>  * Main headline
>    Some thoughts expressed here
>
>  ** Subheading 1
>     More thoughts expressed here
>  ** Subheading 2
>     More thoughts expressed here
>  ** Main headline (cont.)
>
>   I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of
>   'Subheading 2'
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

I don't understand the logic in this. 

In terms of final layout, do you want to have subheading appear as a
"box"? Like in some (introductory) textbooks? If so, you could program a
certain ** to be export as a certain type of object. You might even be
able to use tags to determine how output should be formatted, like in
Org-latex-beamer mode. This might require some hacking. 


I do however, strongly support the idea of terminating headings, but for
other reasons. 

My problem is ending * COMMENT headings. 

This sketch the issue (in terms of LaTeX export):
#+begin_src emacs-org
* COMMENT This is were I put all my export settings, various notes and such

  it could be placed as the very last headline, but that is somewhat
  annoying an illogical to me. 

** Export 
#+TITLE: Test
#+AUTHOR: me 
[A bunch of paper-specific #+latex_header:] 

** An outline of the task at hand 
[...]

And HERE I want to put text before the first subsection. That is beneath
Title but before first section. 
#+end_src

In terms of LaTeX I need something like: 

#+begin_src latex
\begin{document}
\maketitle 
This is where I want some initial text
\section{first section}
#+end_src

Of course, I could start explicitly with a \section{intro} (i.e. *
Intro) right after \maketitle/\begin{document}, but for short papers I
find this is redundant.

Is my style the problem or should there be a way to terminate section, maybe
with an artificial new heading (similar to the :B_ignoreheading: tag)? 

Cheers,
Rasmus

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?

[Mark Elston]

On 3/27/2011 8:02 AM, Marcel van der Boom wrote:
> Hi,
>
> When I'm using orgmode to write out largish documents, I often run into
> the outlining problem that it's apparently not possible to continue
> text of a higher level outline once subsections have been started.
>
> A simplified example of such an outline would be:
>
> ---
> * Main headline
>    Some thoughts expressed here
>
> ** Subheading 1
>     More thoughts expressed here
> ** Subheading 2
>     More thoughts expressed here
>
>   I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of
>   'Subheading 2'
> ----

I have been following this thread with some interest.  But I must admit
to being a little confused as to what is meant by the last sentence,
above.

If this is just a matter of indentation in the org file that can be
handled by the user.  Org will honor any user-specified indentation for
entered text and all subsequent text will maintain the same indentation
until a new heading is encountered or the user enters text with a new
indentation level.

If, OTOH, what is asked for is having org "understand" that the final
sentence was part of the main heading so that folding subheading 2 would
not fold the last sentence as well, that is something else entirely.  I
would suggest that the common rules of outlining should be observed so
as to minimize the principle of least surprise to the end user.  Org
mode is, after all, an outliner (albeit one with a /lot/ of bells and
whistles added for convenience).

On those occasions where I ran into something similar I wound up
restructuring my organization to suit.  For example, the above might be
better structured as:

* Main headline
   Some thoughts expressed here
** Initial points
*** Subheading 1
     More thoughts expressed here
*** Subheading 2
     More thoughts expressed here
** Next set of points
    I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of
    'Subheading 2'.  However, as it doesn't belong to the previous
    set of points it starts a new subsection of the 'Main headline.'

etc.

This seems more in line with what you were intending, anyway.

Something to keep in mind here is that in the final output, unless you
really jump through some hoops, there isn't going to be any difference
in the text associated with the different heading levels.  That is, text
under "Main headline" will look (font/indentation/etc) identical to text
under "Subheading 1", etc.  So the only real difference is going to
come from the nature of the outline and the subsequent sectioning
commands in the output.  Of course, if "Subheading 1/2" were changed to
lists this is /not/ the case as lists are visually distinct from the
surrounding text...

I have recently been playing with Freemind and find it a pretty
interesting alternative to a purely textual listing as in org-mode.
However, mind-maps seem to be rather isomorphic with outlines in many
ways and *still* follow most of the same rules (adapted for a graphical
environment, of course).

I guess I am just not certain how "free floating" text in an outline
is to be viewed conceptually, or to be rendered in the final output.

Mark

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?

[Matt Lundin]

Rasmus <rasmus.pank@gmail.com> writes:

>> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
>>  * Main headline
>>    Some thoughts expressed here
>>
>>  ** Subheading 1
>>     More thoughts expressed here
>>  ** Subheading 2
>>     More thoughts expressed here
>>  ** Main headline (cont.)
>>
>>   I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of
>>   'Subheading 2'
>> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>
> I don't understand the logic in this. 
>

There is no logic in it. ;) It is simply a hack to prevent the text at
the bottom from being folded into "Subheading 2". If anything, it
illustrates that terminating sub-entries in this way only has meaning
when drafting a paper, not when publishing/exporting it. Presumably one
would remove the "Main headline (cont.)" heading when exporting the
piece.

AFAICT, the OP is chiefly concerned about visibility when drafting --
i.e., he does not want all the text following "Subheading 2" be folded
into that subheading. As pointed out by others in the thread, there is
no way for html or LaTeX export to display the sort of nested logic the
OP requests.

Books and articles have the same logic as outlines; sections are only
terminated by another section of an equal or higher level. I think it is
natural that org-mode (an outlining tool) adheres to this logic, even if
it means that terminated, nested subsections (à la xml) are not
possible.

> I do however, strongly support the idea of terminating headings, but for
> other reasons. 
>
> My problem is ending * COMMENT headings. 
>
> This sketch the issue (in terms of LaTeX export):
> #+begin_src emacs-org
> * COMMENT This is were I put all my export settings, various notes and such
>
>   it could be placed as the very last headline, but that is somewhat
>   annoying an illogical to me. 
>

Moving it to the end of the outline would indeed solve these problems.
But I believe it could still be the first headline. One solution would
be to move any text prior to the first section above *all* the headlines
(including the COMMENT headline).

If you prefer, you could create a "pre-section" headline and remove it,
but not its contents, via an export hook.

Best,
Matt

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?

[Matt Lundin]

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> IIUC, OP wants to move stuff around more easily and not have improper
> body text folded.  Improper in this case means belonging to the
> grandparent but after parents.  He doesn't need improper outline
> exporting.
>
> Correct?

Agreed. That's how I read it. The issue has to do with visibility and
folding while editing, not with exporting (since html and latex can't
render such a nested structure).

Best,
Matt