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From: Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com>
To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: test-org-table/sort-lines: Failing test on macOS
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2022 23:01:26 +0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <tliroo$6vd$1@ciao.gmane.io> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87leo3dc42.fsf@localhost>

On 22/11/2022 08:14, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Max Nikulin writes:
> 
>>> 2. `org-sort-list'
>>> 5. `org-sort-entries'
>> `downcase' is used, not proper case folding, so a potential issue
> 
> `downcase' is used to determine user input about sorting type.
> Not for sorting itself.

See case-func variable. Its initialization depends on the IGNORE-CASE 
argument. Strings to sort are passed either through `identity' or 
through `downcase'.

>>> 4. `org-set-tags' (tag order), when `org-tags-sort-function' is set to
>>>      "Alphabetical" or "Reverse alphabetical".
>>
>> IGNORE-CASE argument is not used, perhaps `downcase' is hidden in the code.
> 
> I feel like we are slightly miscommunicating here.
> I mostly tried to list the uses of libc-sensitive sorting. Not
> specifically cases when we try to ignore the case.
> 
> The problem is not limited to case-sensitive comparisons. Some systems
> may fail to implement specific locales and thus sorting may downgrade to
> simple string-lessp.

When case folding is not involved, I consider `string-lessp' as a 
graceful degradation. Despite locale rules are not applied, strings are 
mostly sorted. Exceptions exist, but usually order is reasonable.

Completely disregarding IGNORE-CASE argument of `string-collate-lessp' 
on MacOS (that is not a heavily stripped embedded OS) is a bad surprise 
for me.

>>> 6. Agenda sorting, when alphabetical sorting is involved
>>
>> `string-lessp' and `downcase' so even more severe locale-related issues
>> might be expected.
> 
> Could you please elaborate?

I admit that `downcase' may be an acceptable workaround since 
`string-collate-lessp' may not work IGNORE-CASE, but I believe, when 
available, `string-collate-lessp' should be the preferred option for 
sorting.

>> Achieving consistency across Org code requires additional efforts.
> 
> Well. Just using `string-lessp' would make things very consistent.
> Easily and with no efforts.

With hope that clang will get better Unicode support, I would move in 
the opposite direction, namely wider usage of `string-collate-lessp'. 
Just using `string-lessp' means no ignore case sort even where it is 
available now.

I have an idea of a compatibility wrapper for `string-collate-lessp' 
with special treatment of ignoring case and bad libc implementation. 
Apply `downcase' before passing arguments to `string-lessp'. It should 
provide consistency, best user experience when locales works properly, 
and graceful degradation otherwise. I hope, it is acceptable for Org 
even though such trick is undesired for Emacs due to performance reasons.

However I am afraid of compatibility shims after

d3a9c424b 2022-08-16 17:15:27 +0800 Ihor Radchenko: org-encode-time: 
Refactor into top-level `defmacro'

P.S. I am not motivated enough to build Emacs on Linux using clang to 
check if locale information will be available. I am almost sure that 
some locale information is available on MacOS, e.g. at least strcasecmp 
even if full CLDR can not be easily accessed from C. I do not have a Mac 
to check state of affairs. For objective-C there is e.g. 
comareCaseIndependent.

I do not like that Emacs relies on locale support (and timezone as well) 
in libc. It becomes a problem as soon as more than one locale should be 
used in simultaneously. I agree that there are enough complications and 
sometimes locale depends on the document (e.g. #+LANGUAGE:), sometimes 
specific locale even restricted to a part of a document. It is tricky to 
handle such cases, but current limitations are too strict (and defective 
`string-collate-lessp' on MacOS is an example).



  reply	other threads:[~2022-11-22 16:03 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 27+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2022-10-06 20:15 test-org-table/sort-lines: Failing test on macOS Rudolf Adamkovič
2022-10-07 12:04 ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-08  5:25   ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-08 14:27     ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-09  3:59       ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-09 15:38         ` Rudolf Adamkovič
2022-10-09 16:53           ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-10 22:25             ` Rudolf Adamkovič
2022-10-12 16:09               ` Max Nikulin
2022-11-15  4:10                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-11-20  4:18                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-11-20  8:00                     ` Max Nikulin
2022-11-21  3:15                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-11-21 16:48                         ` Max Nikulin
2022-11-22  1:14                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-11-22 16:01                             ` Max Nikulin [this message]
2022-11-23 10:37                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-11-23 15:27                                 ` Max Nikulin
2022-11-23 17:01                                   ` Max Nikulin
2022-11-26  2:05                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-11-29 16:40                                     ` Max Nikulin
2024-04-03 11:40                                       ` [DISCUSSION] Sorting strings in Org mode vs. system locale (was: test-org-table/sort-lines: Failing test on macOS) Ihor Radchenko
2024-05-05 11:59                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-05-07 11:06                                           ` [DISCUSSION] Sorting strings in Org mode vs. system locale Max Nikulin
2024-05-07 13:09                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-05-07 16:47                                               ` Max Nikulin
2024-05-11  9:38                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko

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